Nick asked me to post this up on here to see what kind of feedback we get. As many of you know, on Friday a CM participant was accidentally hit by a car. From what I heard the motorists was at fault and even though the cyclist wasn't hurt, the bike got pretty trashed. OPD came out and spoke to those involved, dunno what the result was though. How does OPD come in then?
Well according to what Nick mentioned, OPD is willing to provide a motorcycle escort to the Critical Mass ride as a way to maintain safety to both cyclists who participate and motorists on the roads. From what I understand, they would be in charge of corking the intersections and their presence would theoretically keep motorists from doing some of the asinine things they have done in the past. This is where you guys come in...
What are you thoughts on this? A good move or a bad move? What are some of the positives / negatives to something like this happening?
Personally I was very surprised OPD offered to help out in this capacity as opposed to just shutting down the ride. As far as I know, this is a first time I've seen the Police willing to help out a CM ride in this manner. I'll be honest, I'm still going back and forth on this for various personal reasons. I will say that one of my biggest hangups is that they are offering motorcycle units. I personally think Bike Patrol officers would be a better option if this does happen...
Please post any opinions, concerns, thoughts, praise, condemnation & any rants you may have on the issue. Considering Police action in the past, I find this to be a rather interesting change of pace. Also, if you know of any other CM rides with Police escorts, let us know how things have worked out.
Lets keep it on topic and productive; keep the jackassery to yourselves...
5 months ago
35 comments:
I know people may be sad that they'd have to curb their behavior in a tad if police were there, or may even see it as being babysat (is that a word?).. but personally I'd lean more towards having OPD there. In terms of Critical Mass' stated objective of bike awareness, it could only help the cause by legally legitimizing it. Right? Then again I haven't ridden it in a few months, so maybe I have no say.
though i dont live in orlando anymore, the last mass i rode at in otown the police were not on the cyclists' side but seemed to be making things more difficult. so to hear this is great...however i feel that there would need to be some sort of verbal/written agreement/terms to how and what extent the police will be involved. and the idea of them being on bicycles versus motorcycles should be a major factor, as its a BIKE ride. but if they try to keep everyone in one lane, break up the flow, and do the typical police thing, it may not benefit.
i guess to look at the big picture, overall its better to have police on your side with some control, then against cyclists making things royally suck.
Bringing in the PO-PO is never a good idea. We would prolly need 10 officers at least to "CORK" the intersections. I think when they realize how much time and man power it will take, they will shut it down. Even with the police there we will still be in danger from loser drivers on cell phones. NO POLICE!!!
Ok, so I was there... (why am I always around for the accidents?)
The bike was completely ruined. The driveside dropout was snapped off, rear derailleur was broken, back tire ruined, and the cranks were bent from the weight of the car (they now make contact with the downtube). The rider headed to the hospital as his shoulder was swelling and becoming painful as everything was being sorted out.
The guy in the car admitted to being at fault but everything was going to stay a civil matter until the driver accidentally admitted that he took his eyes of the road when he merged. This made it a case of negligent driving so he did get a ticket.
The really sad part is that this was that rider's and his wife's FIRST critical mass! He vowed to be back and I wish him all the best in riding again.
As for OPD, the supervisor of the police officer came out and I had a chance to talk with both of them. *I'd also like to point out that both were extremely nice and were not bastards... that night* The supervisor said he was a bike cop and I asked about OPD participating in Mass because the wife of the rider wanted to know how we could avoid things like this from happening. The officer said that it's extremely easy to get an escort, all we would need to do is pay 35/hr. I'm not sure "willing to participate" is the same as "willing to get paid" but I welcome having OPD there.
Personally, I think it really legitimizes things in the eyes of all the cars on the road. While I'd love it if car drivers respected our rights I don't think it's going to happen until something like this happens.
i've ridden mass with SFPD and they seem to be a positive presence more often than not. sure, they've given a couple of cyclists tickets for whatever reason and that sucks, but i've seen them handle aggressive drivers far more frequently. i've seen em arrest drivers who are trying to push their way into or through the mass, i've seen them shut drivers down when they're involved in altercations with cyclists -- they just generally seem to temper the tensions that can flare at a mass.
Vegan TNT: interesting about the $35/hr charge. Nick never mentioned any that so that's something that def needs to be looked into...
Keep the comments coming!
I was at the accident and the both officer's stated that it would cost $35 an hr. I don't know if Nick knows this or not. Unless RETRO CYCLES is forking out some $$$ or trade labor. I personally don't think that its a good Idea. I believe that the "LAW" being involved will complicate things and possibly break the flow of mass. This has happened before. An officer stated in the past that it was against the law to "cork" traffic. I would expect that they would not allow this to happen. That being said I hope all this comes to a positive resolution.
Tough question. Of course, I think most everyone will have mixed emotions. I've always gotten really stirred up when watching footage of the police hating on CM in other cities, but I think it might set a precedence for other cities if we were to try something different - where the city and the people worked together.
But I only think this would work if the officers were on bicycles, not motorcycles. There have to be some officers that would actually enjoy riding CM, right?
I'd to take this from a different approach, while it make be 35 dollars and hour and all that think about the positive impact it would have on the community. From what I always heard critical mass was just an expression to show there are alternate means of transportation. If the general public saw a group of riders being escorted by the police they may start taking a more positive attitude toward all riders
some type of anti-establishment void is filled when riding in critical mass. so, i initially didnt want the POlice involved. But it is probably better to give up some room to fool around and just let the cops help out. its better to have them for us a little than against us a lot. maybe there could be a tip jar to donate for the cost per hour at each mass and bike shops. but i doubt the city would put their guys on bikes to control cars. they would not have the upper hand that way and probably wouldn't risk it. and what about if the route was to change due to something; like the idea to end at the enzian to watch "breakin away" would they dominate and only allow one route. or would they be flexible..
as far as this goes, it seems general police reaction to cm rides follows a certain rubric: either repress mass and make it über illegal (see 'still we ride'/nyc cm), or "escort" the ride (seen in sf and several other major cities) - to control it.
let's also be clear that whatever the police will do they will decide on their own, and to believe otherwise is naive and foolish. To pay $35 for an "escort" (when policing and 'keeping the peace' is not only already payed for by our taxes, but also already part of their job descriptions) would merely be a bribe to ensure our rights as cyclists and our constitutional rights to assemble. Without said "protection" our ride would be illegal to them.
That said: will we ride? YES. I'd frown upon any money paid for what's already ours, legally; also, it's EVERYONES say in whether or not "mass" approves of the presence of the police (or if we're even able to principally exclude anyone, for that matter), so i'd say this conversation is really a brick wall. CM is xerocratic, and any decision made without everyone who wants to have a say, really means fuckall.
My opinion: fuck the police, acab, and let's not give them an answer
Politely challenge, request, or INVITE the presence of the OPD BICYCLE unit to PARTICIPATE in the monthly CM events... This in itself could show some sort of "unification" in the cause of riding bikes - AND open OPD's eyes about the cause & effect (& avoid) of irresponsible (car) drivers - period. It would also show OPD that even with the different walks of life that CM brings, it's ALL about the cause of bike riding & to show that man, CM FOLLOWS the rules of the road! And being close to someone that sustained a bad bike injury resulting from an irresponsible driver, I knowwwww! It would help bring RESPECT, education & (damn!) maybe even "harmony" between the 2 fold, the community (a positive for CM) & perhaps even make a statement to Orlando. I say an invitation to Mayor Dyer to participate in the next ride (he has supported "riding to work")should even be extended. I agree w/ Vegan TnT & Nick IS on the right track... And it's TIME for community awareness!
I think a police presence would be good for the ride. It would let drivers know what we're doing has the approval of law enforcement and would help defuse situations before they get out of hand.
I don't think that the "escort" part of it is so good an idea. Even without figuring out who pays for it, I think, by using motorcycle cops, it would look like we need police protection for our ride when what the ride is for is promoting cycling awareness and legitimacy.
It seems to me that bike cops have as much interest as any of us in raising cycling awareness. I would bet we could find a few to volunteer to ride along with us in uniform. They probably wouldn't even need to do much, just being visible sends a message to drivers.
there are definite advantages to having a police escort for Critical Mass, but it's a double edged sword. for one, it would lend more legitimacy to the movement, but would that make the general public see single riders or groups without an escort as less legitimate? in my opinion a police escort is unnecessary. riding in Critical Mass is much safer than riding the roads alone, and i've never felt the need for an escort on my commute.
Thnx everyone for the comments so far. I appreciate all your points of view and appreciate the level of discussion you all have brought to the table on this...
Ryan: You and I are pretty much thinking along the same lines regarding this issue. I don't think this would be a good idea for many of the same reasons you articulated (I'm not about to pay to exercise my rights as defined by the state of Florida). That said though, I am not against giving it a try as long as their participation is voluntary and that the spirit of the ride is not impacted by their participation. Somehow I don't see that happening but I'll leave my cynicism out of it for the time being...
Also, Bencott brought up a good point regarding perceptions by motorists. How will motorists view other rides if there is no escort? Will they view them as any less legitimate? I know of many roadies who all ready deal with a lot of belligerence on their rides, would this make it worse or help in the long run? I'm glad this point was brought up...
Lets keep this discussion rollin'...
I think one thing we have to keep in mind is we are at breaking point. Like all good things they can't stay the same forever once they get too big, and too many people are involved. Things have to evolve and the community has to start concerning itself with the future of itself, how it interacts, and how it conducts itself or it will implode.
Mass has got to a point where we are seeing riders of every age and every skill level. We are seeing young children ride along side our mostly twenty something selves. I was witness to the driver last friday cutting in and out of the oncoming traffic lane several times merging into cyclists. The accident finally came about when two riders came to a stop in front of him to address is disregard for safety. Had one of those riders had a child on a tow behind or child seat on his bike we would be looking at a far more disheartening Mass last week.
On the other end of the spectrum, last Mass, I was witness to at least one if not two or three riders who were riding around and punching cars in traffic that seemed to them to be hostile. They weren't, in one case they were trying to defend me. It wasn't doing anything other then creating greater level of frustration and disregard for the cyclists. It was completely contrary to the peaceful form of protest that Mass once was.
I honestly believe we need to consider letting go of apprehensions of a police state scenario and start consider working within the system. In my mind it's no longer just the motorists' who are at fault. If a police presence is there will things change for Mass? Most likely, YES. Will we all like it? No, no one deals well with change. We need to start looking at this not as participants, but as community leaders and think big picture. To grow, keep educating and bringing about awareness we need to think bigger then ourselves and accept that sacrifices will be necessary. So what happens if Mass becomes castrated, you ask? We reform, start over, create a new voice and being again. All good things must die, but I fear we send Mass to an early grave if we don't give it new life.
Antimo, I don't think that could have been better voiced. Agreed we are on the same page.
I think it's very positive that OPD has made such an offer. Really want to make it meaningful? Pass the hat at the ride start and give that to the officers. I bet it will be way more than what they'd charge officially (though it might cause heartburn for their admin folks).
No, CM does not have a right to free support, just as the many churches around town pay officers to help manage pedestrian and vehicle traffic as services let out.
Instead of being ideological about this, be pragmatic. I thought the primary goal was getting more people out on bikes and improving the sense of community. If police support improves that, then go for it.
I didn't ride CM Friday, but I did hear about the crash.
Antimo has put words to some of the thoughts I've had about the last few rides. It's growing and changing. It's fulfilling its mission— creating community and raising awareness. It's an awesome spectacle. But it could hit a breaking point. Evidence of that shows toward the end of the rides (specifically Mills)—as the front speeds up, the group gets strung out, the cork times increase and motorist impatience boils. There's really no reason for cyclists to spill over into other lanes at that point, but they do—sometimes showing complete disregard of anything else around them... and sometimes being purposely antagonistic.
If CM can do a little self-policing and create a cooperative relationship with OPD, it may change the dynamic a little, but it may also take the ride to the next level. As big as it is, there are lots more people who would come out believing there was not going to be hostility and antagonism.
The argument about not paying for a public service sounds good, but it's a tad short of reality. It is not a public service for the police to cork intersections, that is specifically what they were offering to help with, right? That's a "detail." When you see them do that for churches, events, parades, etc., they are being paid by the organization. Keep in mind, corking is illegal. They give us a lot of grace already by turning a blind eye to it (most of the time).
As for the bike cops. I'd love to see them ride with CM and I suspect it's possible if OPD was involved. But the bike patrol is not part of the traffic division, those guys do crime patrol. You probably won't see them as a the sole escort for that reason.
Thanks for the discussion tbm!
Keri
CommuteOrlando.com
Keri & Mighk, thnx for taking the time to reply. :)
I understand your point about paying for extra services but keep in mind Nick never once mentioned anything about paying for the time OPD would be putting in. Personally I think Nick needs to come on here and clarify exactly what OPD offered to do and whether or not they would have to be contracted in order to do so. This is creating a lot of confusion, which is not helping out the discussion. The way it was presented to me by Nick was OPD offered to help and he wanted to get an idea of what people thought. As I mentioned, I felt this was a positive step in light of their attitude in the past…
That said, while I understand & agree with individuals being compensated for services rendered, I don't think OPD should be compensated extra for doing their base job. Why? Well lets forget about the corking offer and address why some people want their presence @ these rides. To sum it up succinctly, people want to be able to enjoy this monthly bike ride without having to worry about motorists doing something illegal and hurting someone in the process. Both incidents that have occurred have been the result of impatient motorists and in both incidents tempers got heated. This is why some people want OPD present. If they (OPD) want to donate their time, that’s one thing but asking for $ to ensure we can do what is legally defined by the State of Florida (aside from the corking) just doesn’t make sense to me. Remember, this is the same organization that just 3-4 months ago was harassing the ride & threatening to arrest participants for asking why. So please pardon my cynicism in thinking paying them to do this will make everything better in the long run...
Again, I'm open to the possibility of OPD helping out as long as it doesn't change the dynamic of the CM ride in a negative way. I would hate to see this become an OPD dictated ride as this would kill the entire spirit of it. In order for this to work, their role has to be clearly defined. Seriously, what's the possibility the bike corps could use this as another training ride? This way they are on duty, they dont cork and their presence could now deter stupid actions by both motorists and cyclists? Maybe its just me but I can get behind this kind of tax revenue expenditure... :)
Quite a few you have have brought up some great points about how quickly this ride is changing and as a result, we all should be open to compromises in order to make the ride better. I agree but at the same time a delicate balance should be struck in how this change gets implemented...
BTW Blair, do you know if SFPD gets paid extra for this or do they just assign on duty officers to handle CM? Just curious...
I'm going to call the officer I talked to friday. I'll return with more info.
No payment was mentioned. They just offered to help. Thats about it.
I'll call and get back with more info.
Beautiful people of the city Beautiful!
Next critical should end at city hall. Take a stand and voice your opinion to the public. Everyone above and the ones who ride critical mass are passionate about this ride and their bicycles. I watched this critical mass go from 10 people to 200 people in no time. There's no time to destroy and rebuild. WE HAVE TO STAND UP! form a solution and continue to grow as one!
*im sorry for the person that was injured. I hope your ok.
tbm/catfish wrote:
"I don't think OPD should be compensated extra for doing their base job."
I don't see how one can say escorting (and protecting) a group of cyclists who don't want to adhere to traffic laws is a regular element of police work. (And I say this as one who has attended a number of CMs and believes it to be positive overall).
Philosophical sidebar:
The message many NON-participants take away from CM is that cyclists want respect, but don't want to have to follow the same rules. If cyclists also routinely violate the rules of the road when not in CM, it reinforces this perception even more. Think for a moment from the motorist's perspective. "These cyclists are always violating the law, then they get OPD to help them do it even more during these rides. Burns my butt."
What if the story was this?: "Those cyclists are usually law-abiding and courteous, so I don't have a problem with them getting some special treatment once a month, as long as they don't tie-up things too badly. Plus I heard they make a big donation every month to some worthy local charity."
tbm also wrote:
"...asking for $ to ensure we can do what is legally defined by the State of Florida (aside from the corking) just doesn’t make sense to me."
Riding more than two-abreast is illegal (tho we could argue the rationale). Running red lights is illegal. Corking is just a tactic to make red light running safer.
Forget about legal arguments, because you will always lose them. The arguments are about culture and fairness.
Motorists routinely violate the posted speed, and often see it as "unfair" when officers cite them for it.
Norms matter more than laws. In order for something to be seen as normal, it has to be seen as fair. CM risks being seen as unfair by motorists, who last time I checked, were still the vast majority of citizens.
"Plus I heard they make a big donation every month to some worthy local charity."
lmao.
Good points Mighk. As you and I have discussed in the past, cyclists who participate in CM are a huge part of the perception problem. I also view motorists egocentric and myopic attitudes to be just as deadly though. If we agree on anything, it's perhaps that both sides make the situation a lot worse than it needs to be...
BTW, when I proposed the example of the police riding with us in the mass, I was operating on the assumption everyone would behave on the ride. I know for a fact the police cannot sanction/ look away from the number of ways some cyclists disregard the rules. things like the corking issue along with several other things that happen at these rides will need to be addressed. That said, I still stand by my original point in regarding their role and I still don't think paying to exercise a right is a good model to follow...
Lastly, no decision will be made online but rather will be decided on the day of the ride. All we are doing is opening the forum for proper discussion of the issue to take place...
I was talking to Nick last night and we both agree that this ride is at a crucial point. What started off as 10-20 people has grown organically in to what it is now. Its moved from a few people getting together once a month to ride in to a community ride that is somewhat representative of the Orlando area. It's actually quite impressive when you think about it...
ez!
a family member is OPD and i spoke to him. he stated that the escort would probally be an off duty cop such as you see at bars,club and etc. that prob. why it would cost the $35, its not just opd taking our money you will be paying trained/law informed security. if the "movement" is as important as every one seems to make it why would it hurt to have any additional help regardless of who it comes from
FUCK DA POLICE. DONT LET THEM RIDE WITH YOU! I mean why not have an after mass dinner with them at stardust as well? tell them all your secrets, what bars you hang out at and then watch them bust a million kids for drinking. CITY HALL meeting! Group opinions and voices. there are so many people that dont even come on this blog that have voices. Just saying it should be a group decision towards what happens. not up to the 2 or 3 people that are talking to the cops you dont have the right to decide the fate of critical mass for everyone. FORM AS ONE!
*Twinkles to Ryan and Noonan*
"It was completely contrary to the peaceful form of protest that Mass once was." - Antimo
While I wouldn't necessarily agree that CM is a protest it is comprised of individuals who may identify the ride as such. Nonetheless, it is a statement for whatever the beholder makes of it. What I do agree with is peace.
The state/empire is the opposite of peace. Using force, manipulation, fear, and bribery to have others conform to you and your elite's (the "representatives") laws and viewpoints is in itself violent and oppressive.
Critical Mass as an individual ride has been/is always autonomous from other Critical Masses. With autonomy CM has also not adhered to any select groups guidelines, other than to meet and to ride and to enjoy in the moment. So, along with Noonan for the elite of us that have access to computers there should be no decision being made for the whole by a few unless otherwise that right has been given by the whole to the few.
No offense to Gus or any other moderator of this blog, but as it's title says it's 407 FIXED GEAR, and as such I'd have to believe that much of the internet enabled cycling community does not frequent this site.
So, I propose that there be public and open discussion held about such interaction from the state to be able to hear the voices of all.
anonymous: Thanks for the info. that pretty much seems to be the way it would work. It will be up to the cyclists that participate to see if this would be a good expenditure of money. BTW, this is not a "movement' but rather a group ride with a basic goal. I know it may come across as semantics but there is a big distinction between the two...
Steve: For starters, reading comprehension seems to fail you. I mentioned several times there would be no decision reached here. Feel free to re-read my comments and point out otherwise...
Second, I find it laughable you would label me as part of the "elite" because I am open to some form of compromise in order to accommodate all participants of this ride. Perhaps my views are too "pragmatic" for your true believer viewpoint but one of the things I always took away from Anarchist philosophy was the belief in mutual cooperation. I could have just as easily told Nick to fuck off and kept blogging about fixed gear specific topics. I thought by opening up this topic up to discussion we could perhaps get conversation going and get some idea of what people think of this issue.
Lastly, You would be surprised how much traffic this site generates and who views it (Google Analytics is an amazing thing). Not to mention there are two distinct individuals commenting in this thread who are bicycle advocates and not part of the fixed community (Keri & Mighk). Also, based on some of the commentary I've had to moderate in the past I can tell I have both Roadie and BMX trolls that frequent this site. What does this all mean? Basically you are talking out of your ass when you tried to claim to know who our audience is...
Feel free to gt a physical meeting together so the "non elite" can have their voices heard. I'm all for it and will even mention something on here so the "elite" that do frequent this blog can attend as well. Contrary to what some of you have implied, I could care less what the decision is either way because for me, its an easy decision. I stand by my opinions whether or not it's the popular one...
i would suggest someone try to contact some one higher up w/in "opd" to see what the true view on this matter is....are they offering this service because of numerous complaints from drivers every month and this could be there way of somehow controlling or trying to control the situation-event ? or are they really intrested in reaching out to the "bicycle community" as a whole to show some true support and concern regarding safety to both bicyclist and drivers ? - could be a trap 2 you know, round em' all up at once and get em" ..lol
Gus:
I apologize if you thought I was calling you elite because what was meant was using you in the context of the state and not you as part of that or as a moderator. I was referring to the means of our "democratic" system, not the system of communal conversation. So, my apologies in that.
My suggestions were more in that I think it would be great to talk in person then to just hear points online in the form of comments. I personally enjoy face to face interaction much more then typing behind a screen. I'd like to hear all different view points in public.
And by elite I should have rather used the word privileged that I may have a computer, and access to internet, and the time to correspond. In that I find myself extremely privileged and was including myself in all those that can have their voices heard. I would love to talk with you and others about issues like bicycle advocacy where we can have increased accountability/mutual aid for the community.
I feel like this is an example of how comments/threads on the internet get misinterpreted, and again I'm sorry that this happened and you felt I was attacking you, but as I said it was my feelings towards the state and not you, as I've only had positive interactions the brief times we have talked.
Peace.
once the talking with police starts. it will only shed more light on what we are doing. and if they aren't cool with it (which is highly likely) they will start to take steps to shut it down, reform it without our consent.
Steve: apology accepted but not really necessary (I do appreciate it though). If anything, this makes a prime example of why a face to face meeting is a good idea. Also, privileged is a much better word as I have a much different definition of who the "elite" are. and no its not the Illuminati before anyone starts asking... :)
If a meeting gets scheduled, please let us know. I'll make sure to get the word out here and through some of the other Orlando cycling sites/forums...
man its so true what someone said about people respecting the norm above the true "law". I saw these motorcyclists at the waterford lakes towncenter the other day leaving after getting hammered at the ale house and a motorcycle cop helped them cork. And they were already corking. if that was cyclists or any other lesser recognized group there would be BS from the po po.
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